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BTANovember 2, 2005 at 4:00 AM
Wow, now this sure is a nice place you got here. Thanks for the reference.
I want to respond to your sincere concern as to whether this blog will do any good, or better- more good than harm.
My plan is to make something that saves a lot of potential BT's a lot of strife. To make it personal, I am glad I became a BT. It opened me to new sensitivities I am certain I would never have. It got me sooo much closer to my whole family, nuclear and others.
On the other hand, the true harm came in my being cajoled and pushed into levels of observance. Why the rush? Why indeed. There are only so many kiruv rabbi's out there and a lot of prospects and not too much money. I think they want to push and get on to the next one.
BT yeshivas provide the perfect solution- the rabbi's just give you cholent and kugel for a while, learn a shtickle torah with you while mainly playing psychological games on you. Then, they pass you off to yeshiva.
I went to machon shlomo. It's a well known BT yeshiva with a reputation for smart guys. I won't tell if I went 1, 2 or more years for identity reasons. I will say that they have a 2 week summer program where the head rabbis come to the US and do a little road show, complete with BBQ's and science and torah lectures mixed in. The atmosphere is very laid back and the kiruv part gets ratcheted up by the end. You get tefillin and learn about tzitis, etc. You get Kelemen style lectures that are supposed to put aside your doubts. The rabbis are nice and smart and credible. You figure, it can't be all that bad.
The yeshiva focuses on getting as many doctors, lawyers, scientists, mba's as possible to the yeshiva. The strategy is: get these guys whipped into shape in 2 years (they get you to agree to 1 year, then make you feel like a loser if you don't keep going) then married and off into the world. However, a lot of the guys there in recent years seem to be learning more and more after the 2 year period is up. The guys are in demand from single girls because of the rep for nice, smart well off educated guys. Not bad catches at all.
I think they like to graduate these guys for another big reason: if someone sees a frum doctor or PhD or lawyer, it's great advertising for machon shlomo and yiddishkeit in general. People think, "if they got over their questions and became orthodox, hey then I can too!"
However, questions are NOT part of the machon shlomo curriculum. In fact, guys are hand picked for their competitiveness and non-questioning nature. The rabbis know that the guys will hit the ground running and compete with each other to learn. They really hold the shidduch thing over their heads as well. Guys go there for 1 year thinking they'll get married. By the end of that year, they're socialized into another year. "Then," they are told- "you can be truly great!"
There are divorces and unhappy marriages behind the scenes. There are unhappy guys. The place should tell potential BT's everything up front. Otherwise, it's a major stumbling block.
Since machon shlomo and other places like it (aish and ohr someyaach) aren't straight with potential talmidim- just schmoozing them up to get them in- then my blog will do a lot of good by making sure there is something on the net for them to consider first.
When I went, there was nothing on the net about OJ. The net was still young, and there certainly were no blogs!
Hope that helps you sleep better tonight.
Reply
https://serandez.blogspot.com/2005/11/creating-monster.html#c113092202931161650
Hi... I also went to Machon Shlomo, also quite a while ago, and also have gone down in observance lately.
I can totally identify with your wife's statement "If you find the right spouse becoming frum will make your life great, if not it will ruin your life." I got married after a very short going out period and engagement. When I brought up my misgivings while there was still time, I was told, "love comes later" and "love is not important" (even though those 2 contradict each other). The marriage was hopeless from the start but I've let it go on and on, with kids of course. Now my life is very confused and messed up and I feel trapped.
Also the financial aspect with the crazy tuition prices is getting me down. Before I went to the Machon, I was making a great salary and and could have easily advanced or started my own business to the point where I would be almost ready to retire now. As it is, I/we are a financial basket case with no retirement plan whatsoever and no plan even to pay for weddings / college / yeshiva or whatever.
I often wish I could go back and change the part of my life where I became frum, or at least where I got married.
Are you open to talking to me?
BTA said...
It is very hard to find people, other than disciples, who would say anything nice about the guy. I've seen the Rabbis at M.S. strain to come up with respectful things to say about Rosenberg, but it seems most people just acknowledged he was a tough old coot (aka "authoritarian")and of course his accomplishment of starting machon shlomo, which in spite of its downsides manages to attract a nice group of fellows each year.
As far as I know, he never published a single book. And, where for that matter, is Rabbi Gershenfeld's treatise on all things Torah? I find it so strange that he never published, given his daily bashing of Artscroll's chumash (which was strange since the footnotes seemed to mirror the shiurim quite nicely). I wonder if R.G., who would so dismissively mock the artscroll Rabbi's commentaries as dead wrong, ever wrote to Artscroll to have these misinterpretations corrected in time for the next printing...
That was one of the truly cultish things about machon shlomo- the daily reinforcement of the idea that they had the patented "correct" view of judaism and no one, not artscroll, not the chassidim, no one really "got it" but them.
https://offthederech.blogspot.com/2007/03/what-are-you-looking-for.html
BTA said...
"Look, I also experienced kiruv rabbis who seemed to be selling me a "bag of goods" so to speak."
yeah, like EVERY rabbi at machon shlomo. Did you know how much Rabbi Gershenfeld and Rabbi Auerbach to some extent are *constantly* monitoring the emunah level of the guys at the yeshiva. R.G. in particular spends a lot of time calling other contacts back home and conferring with people and sending assistant Rabbis to try to "deal" with emunah problems of guys at M.S.
So, they are all trying to sell you a bill of goods, my friend. And on top of that, they essentially would ban you from reading off limits items. Kiruv is very cultish, especially the plan of snaring people with BBQs and Friday nights and then trying to turn up the pressure to get them to yeshiva (away from everyone and everything they know) ASAP before they change their minds.
It's very much a cult thing. Then, for single guys, especially at Machon shlomo, they learn to keep their mouths shut about any questions and focus on acheivements in "learning" aka reading and gemara skills rather than any real theological issues. They do this so as to remain viable as marriage prospects.
Once married, they are on their own, and there are plenty of bad marriages and divorces down the road, once someone is saddled with mitzvah and guilt.
I've had 4 former machon shlomo alums contact me about their truly depressing married lives and I know several others personally. I feel like I dodged a bullet, frankly!
So, I think your spiel about being knowledgeable about the "facts" before dispensing advice applies equally to the rabbis at these overzealous BT yeshivas. They are out to create more clones, but where are they in the aftermath?
--------------------
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 02, 2005
Are You In a BT Yeshiva?
I want to respond to your sincere concern as to whether this blog will do any good, or better- more good than harm.My plan is to make something that saves a lot of potential BT's a lot of strife. To make it personal, I am glad I became a BT. It opened me to new sensitivities I am certain I would never have. It got me sooo much closer to my whole family, nuclear and others. On the other hand, the true harm came in my being cajoled and pushed into levels of observance. Why the rush? Why indeed. There are only so many kiruv rabbi's out there and a lot of prospects and not too much money. I think they want to push and get on to the next one.BT yeshivas provide the perfect solution- the rabbi's just give you cholent and kugel for a while,learn a shtickle torah with you while mainly playing psychological games on you. Then, they pass you off to yeshiva. I went to machon shlomo. It's a
well known BT yeshiva with a reputation for smart guys. I won't tell if I went 1, 2 or more years for identity reasons. I will say that they have a 2 week summer program where the head rabbis come to the US and do a little road show, complete with BBQ's and science and torah lectures mixed in.
The atmosphere is very laid back and the kiruv part gets ratcheted up by the end. You get tefillin and learn about tzitis, etc. You get Kelemen style lectures that are supposed to put aside your doubts. The rabbis are nice and smart and credible. You figure, it can't be all that bad.The yeshiva focuses on getting as many doctors, lawyers, scientists, mba's as possible to the yeshiva. The strategy is: get these guys whipped into shape in 2 years (they get you to agree to 1 year, then make you feel like a loser if you don't keep going) then married and off into the world. However, a lot of the guys there in recent years seem to be learning more and more after the 2 year period is up. The guys are in demand from single girls because of the rep for nice, smart well off educated guys. Not bad catches at all.I think they like to graduate these guys for another big reason: if someone sees a frum doctor or PhD or lawyer, it's great advertising for machon shlomo and yiddishkeit in general. People think, "if they got over their questions and became orthodox, hey then I can too!"However, questions are NOT part of the machon shlomo curriculum. In fact, guys are hand picked for their competitiveness and non-questioning nature. The rabbis know that the guys will hit the ground running and compete with each other to learn.
They really hold the shidduch thing over their heads as well. Guys go there for 1 year thinking they'll get married. By the end of that year, they're socialized into another year. "Then," they are told- "you can be truly great!"There are divorces and unhappy marriages behind the scenes. There are unhappy guys. The place should tell potential BT's everything up front. Otherwise, it's a major stumbling block.Since machon shlomo and other places like it (aish and ohr someyach) aren't straight with potential talmidim- just schmoozing them up to get them in- then my blog will do a lot of good by making sure there is something on the net for them to consider first. When I went, there was nothing on the net about OJ. The net was still young, and there certainly were no blogs!
I started thinking- any guys in Machon Shlomo, Aish, Ohr Somayach, Shapell's, etc. that are reading this (as of now 24 hour old or so) blog? One day you may hit on this blog just researching the above institutions.
Since I say a lot derogatory about Machon Shlomo, I should point out, the guys that go there are smart, and most are pretty well adjusted. I have met Ohr guys from the Center program and they are similar, perhaps more laid back. I also want to state a lot/most of these folks are very happy they went to MaClone Shlomo, whoops, Machon, but one has to admit it is a cookie-cutter institution with a very set hashgafa. Shapells seems to have a diverse body of rabbeim from different streams.
So, any of you BT yeshiva guys, if you think I'm way off, or if you have some nagging issues that are not going away, please consider this the forum for your thoughts. You should consider a guest post, since that's how I hope this blog evolves- collectively.
I think each yeshiva has its own way of dealing with "questions." My biggest complaint about machon shlomo and R. David Gottleib on his ohr someyach website isn't much better- is that they pretend to have an answer for EVERY question!
Now, there are 2 kinds of answers- those that put the issue to rest and those that create new questions. I'm curious how the rabbeim are addressing your questions. They OWE it to you to try! In my opinion, they owe you disclosure before you go. I mean, once you've invested so much time and money, perhaps quit a job or dropped out of grad school/medical school (they always get a few of those) you are over a barrel. Then, they hang the shidduch thing over your head.
Come to think of it, these places are rather cult-like aren't they? Well, let's hope not all of them. And, I was at machon shlomo a long time ago, so maybe they've changed since then, though I doubt it. Let's hear from you soon. Don't be timid- it's anonymous!
POSTED BY BTA AT 4:04 PM 
Hi... I also went to Machon Shlomo, also quite a while ago, and also have gone down in observance lately.
I can totally identify with your wife's statement "If you find the right spouse becoming frum will make your life great, if not it will ruin your life." I got married after a very short going out period and engagement. When I brought up my misgivings while there was still time, I was told, "love comes later" and "love is not important" (even though those 2 contradict each other). The marriage was hopeless from the start but I've let it go on and on, with kids of course. Now my life is very confused and messed up and I feel trapped.
Also the financial aspect with the crazy tuition prices is getting me down. Before I went to the Machon, I was making a great salary and and could have easily advanced or started my own business to the point where I would be almost ready to retire now. As it is, I/we are a financial basket case with no retirement plan whatsoever and no plan even to pay for weddings / college / yeshiva or whatever.
I often wish I could go back and change the part of my life where I became frum, or at least where I got married.
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